Speaker 1: 0:00

No doubt about it. So that means that we have to focus on the skills we have as human beings, that computers and robots do not have an emotional intelligence, a creative, accepting fear, accepting failure. So we just got to be better humans. That's the best solution. Take the idea of a glowing tree. I'm sure there are many people there are people out there who had that idea, right, okay, great, but having an idea is sort of everything, but it's like nothing, right? Because you don't own an idea, you have to surrender to it and you've got to feed it with all your love, time, money and energy, and the idea will take you to a place you've never been before, and that's sort of really cool, but also really scary, right?

Speaker 2: 0:52

Dan, welcome to Light Talk Morning. Yeah, it's morning for both of us. You're in Bali, I'm in Australia, so it's roughly in the same time zone. It doesn't happen often that I talk to people in the same time zone, but in this case it's good Listen. I would like to start by giving the audience a little insight on your journey where you are today, a little bit about, well, basically, from when you were born, what you studied and what brought you to create Studio Rosengarten.

Speaker 1: 1:27

All right, you want me to do 10 seconds, 1 minute, 1 hour or 10 hours?

Speaker 2: 1:32

Up to you. Up to you, nice.

Speaker 1: 1:37

You know that with Bachmunderstufuller, right, the godfather of the Jurassic Dome, and he would give lectures for 8, ten, sometimes 12 hours. Um, you can still view them in the in the national library of canada and it's and, and the people state you know, I'm not suggesting we're going to do that now, uh, and I'm not comparing me with him, of course, but the idea that it's sort of free and the content decides the format is something that always inspired me. So, you know, people ask me are you a designer, an architect, an innovator, an entrepreneur, a scientist? I'm like, yes, right, I think I don't want to define what I want to explore. I studied fine arts, did a master in architecture. A lot of people telling me what I want is not possible, and somehow, through the years, you realize that it's your job to prove them wrong. Right, and so I'm running design firms based in Rotterdam team of designers, engineers, project managers. We have another place in Bali where we're focusing on the glowing garden, more the super nature project, because nature loves to grow here, breeding fireflies, trying to bring them back as they are at the point of disappearing, and basically working on a world that glows, but from day one.

Speaker 1: 3:02

We love using technology. We love collaboration, we love using technology, we love collaboration, we love science. But it's in the end, it's about the, the interaction and the feeling it gives to you. So when I work with light, it's not per se, you know, about Lux or or Lumen or lot or all these kinds of things. I'm more like when I, when I use light, I see it as a language, right. So I think like, okay, so I create something.

Speaker 1: 3:29

Somebody goes there, right, and he or she experienced something. They go to bed, they go home, they go to bed, they dream. The next morning they wake up, what do they remember? Right? And that's where I want to be, that's what I want to design, and sometimes it's a material we spend years on developing ourselves super high tech. Some it's an existing principle from nature that's been around for hundreds, maybe millions of years.

Speaker 1: 3:59

But it's great to have an idea and let the idea guide you to a place you've never been before. And so we never, we never copy paste, but we always copy more, right, we, we, we, we, um. So, maybe, to conclude, we've, we've done, uh, a dance floors that produce electricity when you dance on it, the first sustainable dance floor. Uh, we were part of the design. Uh it the first sustainable dance floor. We were part of the design. We built the world's largest smoke vacuum cleaner that that sucks up polluted air, making an air park. We've recently launched the biodegradable fireworks called spark and um. Right now we're working hard on the glowing garden, on real flowers that you see behind me, the orchid nursery that glow from within themselves.

Speaker 2: 4:45

So yeah, we'll get to those projects in a little while I. I wanted to also understand you wanted.

Speaker 1: 4:51

You wanted an introduction, so that's, that's yeah I know perfect, it's perfect.

Speaker 2: 4:55

There's no, there's no fixed rule how this chat is going to go oh yeah, but I was wondering. I was wondering the trigger that that brought you from fine arts to what you're doing today, because it's not a logical sequence. Something must have triggered you and say, oh, this is the direction I want to go. I mean, you told me about your innovative spirit. No for answer, and I got this, this is cute.

Speaker 1: 5:26

Yeah, this is my best friend, yeah okay, we all need a best friend yeah, yeah, um, no, I mean the, the logic.

Speaker 1: 5:35

Well, I mean I. I think the whole traditional thinking of linear thinking like ab, d is restraining us as human beings and actually the biggest challenges we have right now on a global scale are not will not be fixed by linear thinking, right? So you gotta be a hybrid. You've gotta connect different worlds, different thinking, collaborate, invent. So I think it's more about designing the missing link between worlds or between disciplines, rather than sticking to what you know and so 80% of what I'm doing now I was never educated, for like three years ago, when you came to work on Glowing Garden, I couldn't even keep my house plant alive. And now it's so funny when you start growing things. I'm a tech guy. I know about microchips, c++. I read the magazines. I know what's playing in that world. So interesting the first time you start to grow a flower. In the beginning, it's like you remember when you were a kid, but you didn't know how to read yet, right?

Speaker 1: 6:43

And you're holding this book and but you didn't know how to read yet, right, and you're holding and you're like, in a couple of months I will know what, what's the story, what it's as, but but you don't know yet. Somehow, you, you sort of knew, right and I think that's with a, with a plant and a flower as well that now I can look at a flower and I can see less water, more sun or it's stressed, or we need to fertilize it or just leave it alone, and in the beginning you don't know.

Speaker 1: 7:09

So I love growing things and it's also when you work with nature I think you sort of realize that sort of God creates. We just modify it, so the notion of control becomes an illusion and and you but you can sort of nudge it, you can sort of massage it into trying to be a little bit different and learn from it. So no, to answer your question, I believe in making these links and being an amateur trying to become an expert and infiltrate in different disciplines, and I think that's also where I create my most value, right, being that happy infiltrator and being different and asking stupid questions and not realizing that something is not possible, do you?

Speaker 2: 8:02

prefer people to call you a creator or an innovator?

Speaker 1: 8:06

Whatever, honestly, I'm already happy when they spell my name correctly.

Speaker 2: 8:11

It's really difficult. Well, I have to say, even my name, which is super common in Dutch, obviously, class. You would be surprised how many people spell it wrongly with one A and two S's. It's always like that um but um, no. So so you, you have a lot of interesting projects and quite a lot of them involve lighting. Right, and, and I wonder, at one point of time, you, you started to really get intrigued about lighting and how that would I mean. Lighting for us is magic, we, we, as, like I'm a lighting designer and, uh, sometimes it's not about the technology but about the experience of lighting, what it creates, the thing that it does to your emotions, um, and I, I guess that that's also what probably triggered you in in starting to use lighting in your projects.

Speaker 1: 9:03

Well, absolutely. And I remember, you know, working when I was doing, when I was studying fine arts a long time ago, I would use clay and wood and I somehow I love the process of creation, taking an abstract idea and drag it into materiality, but at the same time, materials felt so, so rough and so stubborn and so, so rigid. And then I remember, you know, playing with really simple spotlights and trying to play with shadows and light and the sort of the interference people would have as they would walk through. Uh, and, and I love that it's. It's basically a material, right, not 100%, but it's almost nothing like if you look at it from a factual, material point of view. But therefore, it's everything right. It can change your mood, it can trigger you, it attracts right.

Speaker 1: 9:58

I think that's one of the most intriguing elements of life. Come on, you put a spotlight on a square, square, wop. People like right, like it's, it's so beginning. You know you experiment and there are like effects that you like. But as you sort of evolve you you realize, hey, you can, you can tell stories with it right, like the catholic church, the, the stainless windows, and like the the building was building, is telling stories of light and mesmerizing. I'm not preaching any religion here, but the Catholic Church was one of the masters of understanding the power of light and storytelling. But anyway, back to the journey I was in, and so once, for example, when we did Waterlicht, these blue waves floating above your head, showing that climate change is real, showing rising sea level is coming or could happen if we don't take care of our dikes, our windmills, our pumps, like in the Netherlands A virtual flood of water, raising awareness of a world that is changing, but also showing the power and the poetry of living with water and sort of fighting against it or learning from it. And then suddenly it becomes an emotional story, a social story. I think that's to me the most fascinating. That's to me the most fascinating, and right now I'm mostly focused in existing light.

Speaker 1: 11:29

Right, so we're breeding fireflies. That's interesting. How long does it take for a firefly to be born? From egg to larva, to firefly? No idea. Give me a number. I should have done my own work. I, I also did it. Now, what do you think like? What's your best guess?

Speaker 2: 11:50

it's probably quite fast, give me another, uh, a month more no, no, two months, no, 10 months, 10 months, okay, okay.

Speaker 1: 12:04

And a firefly lives? How long? Maybe shorter?

Speaker 2: 12:07

than that.

Speaker 1: 12:08

Yeah, give me a number, it doesn't matter, there's no right or wrong. Two months, 22 days, probably less, 32 days, like a butterfly. So they're very I also didn't know. So they're fragile, they're at the point of disappearing. They're magical, right, the luciferine in their body, um, and what's also interesting is that light is their language, and what I mean by that. It's not a metaphor, but it's very physical. So the blinking females low on the ground blink slowly and the male is up in the air and blinks usually a bit faster, but when they like each other, they start to synchronize. So you can see when they're sort of making out. Right, I'm trying to use a comfortable word for everyone, but you know what I mean, I understand, I understand, and so that's why the light pollution in countries is so horrible for them, because then they can't find each other.

Speaker 2: 13:06

So they're literally lost. Is that also part of the reproduction process?

Speaker 1: 13:12

what you just described. Yeah, of course, when they're synchronizing, it's part of the mating process, so you can see they're getting action tonight, right, basically, and even the eggs glow, the tiny, tiny eggs.

Speaker 1: 13:27

Eggs, they glow, yeah, afterwards. So that's why they're disappearing because of the light pollution, because of the pesticide, because of the and the complexity of of being born, so to speak. Um, so we started the world's first breeding program to bring them back. So there's a team of four boy right behind me, uh, hand fed. They're hand feeding them every two days, and right now we have the first home-born uh, fireflies. Uh, here and um, building up a new colony, and nobody's ever done that before. You know, like, if you so, so glowing algae. We found a way to make beaches glow. I have glowing trees here, glowing flowers. So I'm really interested in this sort of super nature of learning from nature and using that to learn from it, to preserve it, but also to bring it back into our daily life, in our human life.

Speaker 2: 14:21

Is that what we call bioluminescence? Yeah, it's one of them. Is that what we?

Speaker 1: 14:25

call bioluminescence. Yeah, it's one of them. You have bioluminescence, you have fluorescence, you have phosphoryl. There are different ways, but that sort of is the umbrella and the application that we're losing it for. Besides that, they're incredibly beautiful and it's fun and emotional to work on it, right Like when I see your firefly. It just makes me happy, right? I don't know why Everyone I'm showing the Firefly garden here. It doesn't matter if it was a billionaire or like a famous actor or you know whomever signed it. They all become kid again.

Speaker 1: 14:59

I can see it happening yeah yeah, yeah, they go back to their kids, which is interesting to see. Um, but it's part of ecotourism. You know, I think it's a big discussion all around the world how you can create um tourism which is good for the environment, not just bad and not damaging, but actually contributing. Yes, so making a firefly garden where the you know people can have a dinner or or drinks and and contribute to the, to the science and the breeding process and to sort of bring them back and share that knowledge all around the world. So I'm really interested in creating new environments where people can experience that super nature and also contributes to to the well-being on a larger scale, and but that's got to be designed so that's your, your firefly.

Speaker 2: 15:45

What about the glowing garden? Is that a different sort of bioluminescence, or is it?

Speaker 1: 15:50

yeah, yeah. So actually flowers already glow for insects like a butterfly. So when you, when you look at light right in the scientific, so this is light, this, this is so you. So this is the element, this is the part you and I see the red blue, the white part, we is the part. You and I see the red blue, the white part. We have the higher frequencies and lower frequencies that go beyond our spectrum, like the UV and infrared Exactly the UV and the infrared, yeah, but light is like we put light back into RGB, but that's, of course, insane, right, there's a multiple of diversity but different topics. So if you look at the spectrum of light, you and I see the white light, so to speak. Insects see a part of ultraviolet light that you and I can't see. So we re-engineered that specific wavelength in the lab and the moment you start to add that to certain types of flowers, they start to glow, and so we're not changing the flower, it's not GMO, it's not like you're adding.

Speaker 2: 16:49

I was thinking he's adding some ultraviolet light or something to get it to glow, but that's not what's happening.

Speaker 1: 16:56

Well, I mean, it's a specific wavelength and you need specific flowers and they need to be happy. That's really important. And what's interesting is that actually you see the world through the eyes of a butterfly, right, you sort of see what they're seeing. Yes, of course, yes, okay, not if you want to be really, you know, a bean counter. Of course the eye of a butterfly has many triangle shapes, so you're not literally seeing, but it is as the closest.

Speaker 1: 17:23

I understand the point yes, shape, so you're not literally seeing, but it is as the closest. I understand and and and I love that that that you know. You sort of you change your perspective as a designer and you like, when I design a firefly garden, I don't think about you and you and you and and the visitors. I think about them. What do they want, want what makes them happy? You know which plants do they like, which kind of water, et cetera. So you reposition yourself as a designer and you start to design from there and that sort of forces you to have a sort of humbleness or a sort of different tactic or a different strategy, and that's really fun as well. So I would encourage every designer, using light or not light, to sort of position yourself in a place you're unfamiliar with, which is also a bit uncomfortable, right, because like, yeah, you don't know it yet, but it really helps you to push the design and create something new.

Speaker 2: 18:19

Was the Van Gogh bypass the first sort of exploration into this sort of bioluminescence?

Speaker 1: 18:27

Yeah, for sure. I mean it started with almost 10 years ago. We're getting old. We got the request from the Van Gogh Foundation and Van Gogh lived in the Netherlands, right In Nuenen, in Eindhoven, 1883 to 1885. Then went to France, made the famous Starry Night, etc.

Speaker 1: 18:50

But the Van Gogh Foundation wanted to celebrate its 125th anniversary in the Netherlands and somehow we became in contact, in collaboration also with Hyman, the infrastructure company who at that time we were building and designing the smart highways with, and so they asked me a very simple question, which I loved, which can you make something to make him feel alive again? Right, and it's really cool. So you take this really famous painter that everybody knows and then, and how can you make him alive again? So what I did is like a good journalist. I followed his footsteps. You know where did he live, where did so? What I did is like a good journalist. I followed his footsteps. You know where did he live, where did he hang out, when did he have a beer, where did he make his painting? And we found this beautiful bicycle path in a nature area and sort of not in the middle of nowhere, but it's like, you know, like there's not that much going on in the evening right, it's quite it, not that much going on in the evening.

Speaker 1: 19:43

Right, it's a bit of nowhere, but it's beautiful words in my mouth. But uh, like you know, it's like it's not. It's not a hot spot. You won't have thousands of people there every night now you do. But, um, yeah, and, and we found this bicycle where we sort of know he lived and worked, he walked these grounds right, and so then the idea came up to sort of using a neat phosphor and materials that would charge at daytime and glow at night, and that we would take his starry night and sort of embed it into that landscape as a tribute to his famous works, but also as a sort of very concrete proposal for roads that are sustainable, that charge at day time and glow at night. So, again, making this link between history and future, between practical and poetry, between a road infrastructure company and an artist, so designing this link. And it's a 700-meter bicycle path, not huge budget, but still today the most publicized bicycle path in the world.

Speaker 2: 20:47

It sort of puts you on the map a bit with that project.

Speaker 1: 20:52

I do know that I had after the launch so many interviews like BBC Roy to CNN that even after three, four days I was tired of hearing my own voice. That says a lot Like you know, you have to talk so much that after a while you're just like, okay, now I'm, you know like Radiohead, the song Creep, you know they're not on the internet anymore. I know it definitely resonated with a large audience and I think it's also.

Speaker 2: 21:26

I mean that's when I first heard about you. To be honest, cool Through that project.

Speaker 1: 21:32

I mean, we're still proud of it, but I think it also it hit a nerve because it showed that if you create a sense of place right, if you create a place that is activating something you know, history, future and even it's interesting um, a lot of teenagers go there, uh, on their first date.

Speaker 1: 21:53

So first they go to the big cinema in in eindhoven and then after that they go there and do the things they do on the first date. I don't want to know about that, but I gave a talk in denbos a couple of months ago, which is sort of nearby, and then one of the one of these sort of nervous, uh students came to me and said, yeah, he, he, he asked me to be, uh, his girlfriend on that spot. So it's like, yeah, so so I mean again, it's not about the technology, it's about what do people do there, and I do think it also is a good example of a future world where technology is jumping out of the computer screen right, and the world is an interface of information, of history, of energy, and light is a beautiful tool for that, in an emotional but also in a functional way.

Speaker 2: 22:47

Yeah, I mean, I worked with Philips in my earlier days and I remember really at that time, we were talking about bioluminescence, in terms of making trees glow, so we don't need streetlights, and these kind of ideas. And still today, I think Philips or Signifiers they're called today they're still very much researching all this, and maybe you have relationships with them in that field. I don't know, but it's certainly something that you know. If you are environmentally conscious, like you have really moved into that area as well, being very environmentally conscious of what's happening in the world and also in terms of sustainable energy usage, absolutely yeah and we have a glowing tree right behind me.

Speaker 1: 23:42

So we've found a way to.

Speaker 2: 23:44

We should have had this discussion at night then. But yeah, way, uh, we should have had this, this discussion, at night then.

Speaker 1: 23:47

But yeah, you, actually we should have yeah, uh, so no, and I and you're, I think also, you know, maybe, if I can address that like um, like philips and signify are companies, right, uh, which is fine, right, that's, that's cool, uh, but I think we're also a company, but we're sort of. We're sort of, uh, being a company is sort of like a jacket you put on just to operate right, to not be naked, but but we are idea driven, not money driven, right, so it's really we spend way too much money, time and energy on ideas without the clients, without a clear focus group or whatever you want to call it, or what's the KPI or whatever you know, like, it's sort of like what we do is like, if we create something that we think is cool as a design team, the chance that there's somebody out there in the, in the rest of the world, that also agrees with that, quite big right, because we're critical and we've seen things, and so I think it's really important to you know, sometimes people say I have an idea. Right, take the idea of a glowing tree. I'm sure there are many people there's therapists out there who had that idea right, okay, great, but having an idea is sort of everything, but it's like nothing, right, because you gotta, you gotta, you don't own an idea. You have to surrender to it and you gotta feed it with all your love, time, money and energy and the idea will take you to a place you've never been before. And that's sort of really cool, but also really scary, right, because it's like uncomfortable.

Speaker 1: 25:25

So that's how you know, you, when you have a good idea, it's uncomfortable, and so that's why it's really important. That's why, indeed, I founded the studio that sure, we have paying clients, right? You see, uh, crazy billionaires, government, you name it but I always take like 30 or 40% of the profit we make, and I don't buy a new car or a speedboat for myself, but I kickstart my own projects, right. So we fund our own project in order to keep growing, to keep trying, to keep failing, to keep experimenting. And in the beginning there are always people who say, oh, it's not possible or it's not allowed, but in the end they say, oh, I also had that idea. But so I think it's important to put the process of creation central on everything you do, and the rest is the rest.

Speaker 2: 26:18

But that's right up your alley. Like you said at the beginning, I don't take no for an answer. So, with your passion and your drive that is probably a trigger to if somebody says no, it's not possible, is to dive into it and show them it is possible.

Speaker 1: 26:31

Well, yeah, well, I mean, like, what I usually do is, when people say no, I say okay, the scale from zero to ten. Is it like no or is it like no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What are we talking about? How strict of a no is it Go ahead Sometimes? The no is, sometimes no is no. I get it.

Speaker 1: 26:58

It's important, I think, in every process when you make a decision, is it based on fear or is it based on curiosity? Right, so something is physically not possible, that's a no. But sometimes you say no because you're hesitant or you're scared, and to sort of challenge that somebody and say, but maybe you do want it, or maybe if we change this and this, you know, no becomes yes, and that's a journey. And so that's why we're very critical in the project that we accept or we deny, because every client or collaboration with it is like a platonic. But it is a relationship, right, it is. It is a journey where you challenge each other and and you remember that time in uh design week in eindhoven where they had okay, that's a famous design awards, etc. But they also had an award for the best client oh, oh, yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:53

No, I can't remember yeah yeah, yeah, I found that, but it was so interesting because, indeed, we sort of under. It's always the designer right, oh yeah, but awesome. But I think the interaction I have with my clients and the way they challenge me and they somehow, sorry for my French, bust my balls right, excuse-moi, or I challenge them, that creates the magic, that creates the excellence, and so I would, in the design principle, the design scene in principle, would you know, like benefit to highlight that interaction is part of the film.

Speaker 2: 28:36

I think that's really critical and I think one of my best memories of my client is a picture that I have of him, with him and me hugging each other, and I think it may sound strange, but it was this mutual feeling of respect and appreciation. You know, a client who fully accepted and appreciated what I had to bring to the table, and likewise my appreciation to him for respecting my skills and going with it. And I think these are things that are super, super important.

Speaker 1: 29:17

And I remember that when we worked with Hermes in Ginza, in Tokyo and working in Japan, especially Ginza, everything is regulated every millimeter, and we had to switch off five streetlights to make it dark. In order to show light, you need darkness, right, and so they're sort of like, three months later we got four, but the fifth, no Impossible. I'm like, okay, you mean no. Or like no, no, no, no, no. They're like Dan San.

Speaker 1: 29:53

It's not going to happen, happen, okay. So the next eight months, um, I put my teeth, uh in it and actually, because of the dutch embassy, help, we had a coffee with somewhere high, whatever we. But the time we spent on on one street lights being switched off was insane and and it was really like like a big thing. It became a big sort of almost like a drama, you know, because I was like, well, we can't open, the light is on, right, they're like, yeah, but we already sent the invite, right, it was sort of. But then they were so cool, everybody was so professional. Then, after the opening, they were like, okay, that was that was awesome, that looked amazing, we completely understand and we really what's next? Right, yeah, and sort of.

Speaker 2: 30:39

That's for me the biggest compliment that you go through that journey with all the ins and the outs, but you want more and then you have to change it, then they can see that why you wanted it and how it really validated your, your concept.

Speaker 1: 30:55

Yeah, it wasn't diva done. It was really, you know, creating an environment where the work you know comes to light and gets the interaction it needs to have with the visitors. But working in public space, working with light, is like every time we do an outdoor exhibition, 80% of the production time we're talking. These are large scale productions and tens of people, years of preparation.

Speaker 1: 31:20

Most of the time we spend on removing light, having lights switched off billboards that burn at night, you know with BS, or streetlights where nobody is, or gas stations fully lit when they're closed, and so usually teams go in advance, make a list of all the lights that need to be switched on and we just work our way down them. But so I think there's a lot of bullshit light in a city. There's also a lot of beautiful light, but so we need to curate our light better. When is it telling the right story? When is it meaningful? Does it need to curate our light better? You know, when is it telling the right story? When is it meaningful? Does it need to be on? Um, but you would be surprised. In a, in a so-called sustainable society we claim to be, that it's it's very difficult to have light switched off and a lot of lights are burning and nobody knows why. Yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 2: 32:12

Light design is also about what not to light. You know, it's not just Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 32:18

The answer is not to put light and to sort of that climax that kind of thinking into the Seeing Star project that we've done, which started as a sort of boyish idea like, hey, we don't see the stars anymore, right, since 20, 30 years. Why? Because of the light pollution, right, the meaningless beaming of BS light. What if, for one night, we would just switch off all the lights? Right, and I'm not talking earth hour, like one hour, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 1: 32:47

I'm talking about all the lights Like, just like a dark zone, and finally we found two mayors who said the beautiful word, yes, right, and we did it. One of the largest was in Leiden, which is close to Amsterdam, one of the most light polluted areas in the world. But, martin, just the time it took to switch lights off, we found so many orphanage lights. This was in collaboration with the mayor, with the city. The government was involved. They needed to approve security, et cetera. All the citizens needed to be informed with a letter. I mean it was like a huge, huge.

Speaker 1: 33:26

I still can't believe we got away with that one. I still can't believe we made that one happen. It's incredible, but there were so many orphanage lights, but I mean, made that one happen. Uh, it's incredible. But but there were so many orphanage lights, but I mean they're just burning, nobody owns them, nobody knows what they're doing, who controls them, who takes care of them? Um, yeah, but we did it and and as we, on 10 o'clock, we switched off all the light um 10 000 people in on the street, finally, no clouds, and everybody started to whisper and you could see the stars above your head and it was so magical to bring that back. I love light, but we need to curate it in a better way. I think it's unacceptable that we live in a world where we talk about AI and self-driving cars and blockchain, but we don't see the stars anymore. That's not a smart city no, no, no no you see the stars in a smart city.

Speaker 1: 34:28

I know.

Speaker 2: 34:31

I just wanted to support your story because I have a farmhouse in the south of France and in that little village which really there's hardly anybody there, we're like maybe three, four families. There's no streetlights, there's no shops, there's no nothing, and at night it's like pitch dark. But once the moon comes up and the stars are there, you can walk. You can walk around without any street light whatsoever and people don't realize that. And I'm sometimes on the side for for a project, and I've got my, my, my team members coming out with with their flash, the torch lights or their phone to light up the way. See, we don't need that, just use your eyes, don't be afraid of the dark.

Speaker 1: 35:16

Yeah, and you're right. And I mean, I think next week is Dark Sky Week. Yeah, right, that's next week.

Speaker 2: 35:25

While we're talking, and it doesn't mean you have to be completely dark. By the time this is put on the net, this will probably be faster anyway. You know what I mean. But anyway, by the time this is put on the net, this will probably be faster anyway, and yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:35

But anyway, it doesn't mean you have to be completely dark, it's just, you know, aim it downwards, use a certain type of color, uh, switch it off when it's not necessary, so, and but what is interesting if you zoom out for a sec, um, and you talk about design and creation. You know I'm not a religious person per se or like a biblical person, but it is interesting if you look at Genesis, the first book in the Bible, the first form of creation was light, right, and there was light. So it's sort of the beginning. Again, we're not sure if it happened in that way, but let's just assume it. It was the beginning of creation.

Speaker 1: 36:17

And it's interesting because how far is the sun away from us? How many kilometers, martin, you know this. How many kilometers is the sun away? You tell me it's 480 million kilometers away, or something like that. It's like really far, and the and the moon is only 850 kilometers, so it's quite nearby. So when you have a full moon, of course the moon doesn't give light, it reflects the sunlight. So so just imagine you have the earth, then you have this. You know, millions and millions and millions of kilometer, sort of nuclear explosion, right, and that light goes. What is it Three hundred thousand kilometers per second, speed of light towards the moon? And that's why you can walk in your garden without the torch? I mean, that's light design, that's light design. Yeah, that's, that's impressive, right.

Speaker 2: 37:13

That's impressive. I know Light is magical, for sure, but you mentioned AI and I think we can't walk around it and certainly looking towards the future, ai is already with us on a daily basis and I would be very interested in.

Speaker 1: 37:31

Oh sorry, Martin, I remember it's 148 million kilometers, or 150, not 148. We can have Chetji, I'm listening.

Speaker 2: 37:43

But I really want to have this discussion about AI as well, because it's infiltrating our daily lives with a scary speed and many, many companies and people are starting to use it in many different forms. And I was wondering, in terms of you know, you talked about concept creation Does AI start to play a role with you? Because, of course, you can do your own research, but now, with, with the aid of ai, there may be a lot of, uh, new opportunities that may help the creation process?

Speaker 1: 38:21

absolutely no, I mean it's. I think it's the biggest invention since world wide web or the iphone 100 and, uh, it's a buddy, it's your buddy, it's one of your best buddies. If I would tell, if we would have this interview five years ago, maybe even three, and that I would be here just sitting with a MacBook on relatively okay Indonesian Wi-Fi, I would talk with robots, they would talk to me, I would generate images, I would WhatsApp them to the printer, who would deliver it to me next day, print it out, framed and everything full color, and I would hang it here on the wall. You know, text-to-image generation, mid-journey. That sounds like the beginning of a good sci-fi movie, right? No, it's real. So what's interesting when you work with AI? The focus text-to-image generation, the mid-journey the only limitation is is your own imagination, right? So we, from day one, started working on it. I spent hundreds of hours on it and you're right in the beginning.

Speaker 1: 39:22

It gives you this weird feeling in your stomach, right, because you're talking to the robots and they start to understand you and you're eating smarter and but on the other hand, um, you know, just go back to the time where we would spend three days on one artist impression. Now I have three people working full-time on it. We're spending, we're producing thousands. I'm talking about tens of thousands of images every week. The sheer amount and options is insane and as you're feeding the, you start to recognize your preference and the prompt.

Speaker 1: 39:56

It's a form of art to be a prompter, to specify the light, specify the texture, specify the camera, like. It is a form of art, like the monks did from the Catholic Church making the stainless windows or making the books. So that's one. It's a body. The speeds, the preciseness is incredible. But what we're doing is also making it real, and what I mean by that is so we make an image. In the end, right, I send it to the team, they make a prototype, and then we take a photo of that prototype, we upload it again into the mid-journey and we tweak it, we work on it, so we go from digital to analog, digital to analog, digital to analog, digital to analog and in the end it's real right.

Speaker 1: 40:46

And what I mean by real, like it's tactile, physical experience that you can see and touch without tech, without a screen or Google Glass or whatever.

Speaker 2: 40:58

So I think this jumping between the different worlds is really interesting and yeah, is that here to stay, or you think they're talking nowadays about AI agents who can do a lot of tasks for you? Is that something that may help you to cross check and and fine-tune the designs?

Speaker 1: 41:19

I, I hired already. No, I think, two to three people less this year because of ai, absolutely wow. So that that's that. That's, that's bad news. In that way, it's also good news because you can do more, and I think the whole discussion ai good or bad now it's just you, you being able to use it as a skill, you can do more.

Speaker 1: 41:42

Um, it goes back to the, to the old tradition will technology make us more, more human or more machine? Right, like, like, like, uh. I think it emphasizes that we live in a world where creativity is, is, is our most important skill, is our real capital, because the machine I still need to tell, the machine I still need to tune, I still need to interpretate what the client or the team is saying. Right, the client says I'm a and I understand she means I like grass, because I know her, I know what she's trying to tell me. Or I think we should do grass and not green.

Speaker 1: 42:22

So our human skill, our desire to learn, our desire to challenge, our desire to allow ourselves to fail, those will be even more important skills to have, because that separates us from the robots and machines. So, with other words, I would embrace it, use it as a tool. Realize that you're still still never say never, we're still in charge and use creativity as your biggest capital, because that will separate you from the machine. That's how we find a new balance, or we become robot food or the character of a George Orwell book.

Speaker 2: 43:04

Yeah, I know it's carrying away because the speed at which this developed, I mean you can imagine that AI will be able to understand your client and create a narrative out of the brief that they're even understanding you will do that.

Speaker 1: 43:23

No, we tried that in ChatGTP Grover. It still sucks, still bad at making titles, still doesn't really. Will it still be like that in two or three years? I mean, if we feed it right, it could be a buddy, but it's still. I think you know, never say never, right? You never know how fast the development goes. And, yeah, in 2027, you will have, you know, independent AI agents which can do a lot of the tasks you and I are doing right now. No doubt about that, no doubt about it. So that means that we have to focus on the skills we have as human beings that computers and robots do not have, and emotional intelligence, the creative, accepting fear, accepting failure. So we've just got to be better humans.

Speaker 2: 44:15

That's the best solution, I think when we talk about all this, we have to make sure that we remain the creator and chief and use it as our companion and our co-pilot, in a way, awesome.

Speaker 1: 44:32

Martin. I did it here with some kids, here for my friends. He has two kids and they're like five or eight years old and I'm just sitting there okay, tell me your future, tell me, describe me your best future. And they're like I'm with mom and dad on the beach. I'm like, okay, are you alone or where? And? And so I typed the prompts and then we're generating their images, as they're sitting next to me visualizing their future.

Speaker 1: 44:57

And then I sent it to the printer and the next day they got it delivered at home. That image is now hanging above their kid's bed and it's cool to sort of sit together and create their future, and they're like whoa, is that possible? It was so much fun. It's good to be scared, but I think it's even better to be curious.

Speaker 2: 45:19

We have to embrace it, that's for sure. You use Midjourney to do that, or are you using other tools?

Speaker 1: 45:24

Yeah, midjourney, a variety of things. I love the runway for the movie making and also maybe it's also good to address it depends on country. Europe is stuck. It's like wind in a glass bowl. It's not wind anymore.

Speaker 1: 45:37

Europe is just focused on regulation, while Middle East embraces it, and Asia as well a little bit. Just to give you an example, I'm Dutch, right, I love my country, don't get me wrong, but there was a House of Parliament discussion and you can follow online for around an hour talking about the price increase of stamps at Postenel. So the stamp would increase for 8%. People use free stamps per year. A stamp is one euro and they're like. It's a shame and you shouldn't do that. One Martin, one hour, the top government official talking about stamps, while Middle East launched a department, a ministry of artificial intelligence, spending hundreds of millions of euros in. So in Europe we're going to talk about stamps for an hour and Middle East is just launching ministries. About it, guess who's going to win, and that worries me to be miniseries about it. Guess who's going to win. And that worries me. To be honest, I'm serious that there's no plan, there's no vision, there's no real urgency or curiosity, and then we just become wind in a glass bottle.

Speaker 2: 46:48

It's a bit surprising, but it brings up the topic of regulation, standardizations and intellectual property protection. Um, that's typically something. I don't know how you look at that, but, um, a lot of creators obviously are worried about how to protect their intellectual property rights. What's?

Speaker 1: 47:09

your good reason, yeah, yeah, for good reason I mean yeah, no, no, for sure I think it. It comes down to the point you want to defend what you have, you want to explore what's coming. You know, like, like, like sure, you know designers should be paid for their work, right, and should get a get a fee or a license or something like that. It should be equal. Right now, indeed, it's just all sucked up in the big robot, you can basically access anything.

Speaker 1: 47:42

Martin, if you Google on now. It was so funny. They had, I think, in Warsaw, a masterclass on the university Midjourney the new work of Dan Rosegard. Every week they take a famous artist and they try to use Midjourney to create their new artworks. A masterclass, and somehow this was forward to me, so they shared the result.

Speaker 2: 48:03

With your permission.

Speaker 1: 48:05

No, no, no, they just used Midjourney, but you can prompt it in the style of Dan Rosegard. And they sent the result and 80% was bad, but 20 was actually. I'm like what that's?

Speaker 2: 48:18

that's not bad.

Speaker 1: 48:19

I mean, I would hire you I would hire you like you would be hired, yeah, if you want to. But, uh, so on one hand it's a little bit, like you know, annoying and irritating what are you doing on the hand?

Speaker 1: 48:29

it is fascinating that people who don't know me I don't know them can sort of predict what I'm working on next, right, I think if you zoom out. We're all part of an ecosystem, right, and we're feeding the ecosystem with our ideas, and I'm proud of that. If I walk into a fine art academy in the Netherlands, I see one of my works in a shitty black, white photocopy uh, printed, hanging on the wall. You know, like I'm part of that mental map and and I'm I'm excited about that, so I don't. Overall, I'm like it. It shows that we're all connected. We're part of a network. Um, we have to invest in new ideas and new designs to survive, and that's the biggest strategy. Trying to restrain or restrict it is not going to help.

Speaker 2: 49:17

It will be very difficult yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:19

To summarize yeah, designers should get paid if their work is being used 100%. But also, let's just take a little bit of a chill pill about it and think forward instead of holding on.

Speaker 2: 49:32

Yeah it and think forward instead of holding on. I heard I was listening to a podcast about AI and one guy was suggesting that the moment you type in somebody's name, that automatically triggers a copyright action. What exactly wasn't specified, but like okay, if someone says, boom, you know you're using his intellectual property.

Speaker 1: 49:58

It's such old school economy. You know like even you know copyright of photos, the old architectural firms. You have to pay if you want to use their photos right For publication. From day one, when I was a fine art student, I was like no, please, here's the present, Use it for free.

Speaker 1: 50:14

The more you share it, it's better for everyone. I don't want you to paper it, I want you to share it. I don't want you to share it a lot because somewhere, somehow, more people see it. They will be triggered and if they want the real thing, the original thing, they'll come to me and the other people just make weird copycats. And it's also okay. It makes the real more real. It's fine, just relax. Keep making new work, keep learning, keep pushing, keep being two steps ahead. That's your value and being so. You know like it's like when you. It's like it's the same in private relationship If you're dating a boy or girl. You know if you start doing that behavior, it's the same in private relationship If you're dating a boy or girl. You know if you start doing that behavior, it's not going to last very long, right, if you're just like yeah no, I've always been big on sharing.

Speaker 2: 51:10

I love sharing my knowledge and my expertise with others, and but I also know people that don't want to do that because they feel they're creating competition or whatever it is.

Speaker 1: 51:21

I think you grow from sharing and to me it's a very, very positive thing. And, martin, if there's an AI agent down, rosegard, fine. I just take my dog to the beach every morning and bye. Nice, retired at 45. Awesome.

Speaker 2: 51:40

Good luck. What about confidentiality? Because sometimes we are in a space where we work Awesome Good luck. What about confidentiality? Because sometimes we are in a space where we work where there's some sort of confidentiality between you and your client and you still want to use AI. That sometimes is a bit of a challenge.

Speaker 1: 51:56

Well, definitely, if you're designing something, you need to create a place that is safe, and what I mean by that is, especially in the beginning, an idea is right, so it needs to be protected, it needs to be nourished, it needs to grow. So having an environment in the studio where where ideas can flow freely and you can experiment freely with ideas and prototype is super important. And once it's sort of mature and and and well thought of and from different perspectives, you can share it with the rest of the world. So the whole notion of sharing everything that is now. You need to incubate your space first. After that, yeah sure.

Speaker 2: 52:37

Do you think designers should declare their use of AI, just in the spirit of transparency? Because I do know some people use it, but you can sort of guess, but they don't really say it.

Speaker 1: 52:52

Well, I think it would be a good thing to sort of educate people for now. But I see it. I see immediately if something is AI or not.

Speaker 2: 53:03

Yeah, but you're an experienced AI user, yeah.

Speaker 1: 53:09

No, and I think what's the problem? I would vouch for it in the time being, because it's a problem that people become very distrustful of what they see Is this a real gas photo or not? From the war images. So the problem is, if people start to distrust what's on the screen, they hide more in their own bubble. So the desire to interact, to learn, to be open becomes minimalized, and that's a bad thing because then we become robots. Right, our vision, our perspective becomes tooized, and that's a bad thing, because then we become robots right Exactly.

Speaker 1: 53:45

Our vision, our perspective becomes too narrow, but at the same time, martin, I think it will re-emphasize a renaissance of nature.

Speaker 2: 53:58

When I look at a firefly here.

Speaker 1: 54:00

When I look at a firefly and I show it to people, they get emotional, right, because it's real, it was born. We fed it for four months every two days with meal worms that we have to breed ourselves, and okay, and we have to figure it out how. And it's a real, it's nature. We can't control it, we can just let it emerge, um, so, so I think we live in a time where we go back to nature and appreciate nature more and more. As this AI revolution is going on, as always, there will be different movements finding a new balance. But to end on that note, we do have to renegotiate our relationship with technology. Right now, we're feeding our robots with our our time, our money, our love, our passion, our ideas, and all we get back is a likey, a facebook, like your instagram. That's a bad deal. That is a bad deal. So we do have to renegotiate our interaction and if it's fair or not, or if it's contributing or activating, and I think at the moment not. So, yeah, there needs to be some work out there.

Speaker 2: 55:11

I want to have a quick chat also about Lux Futurum. We have invited you as a keynote speaker in Shanghai in China later this year, where Lux Futurum for those who don't know it's a recognition program for innovative ideas, new concepts, new projects, all embodying the future, we hope. And you obviously embody the spirit of Lux Futurum and that's why we have invited you to speak and share your ideas.

Speaker 1: 55:47

For somebody who was kicked out of finance school twice, that's a real compliment. I finally fit somewhere Finally. It took me 45 years.

Speaker 2: 55:58

You definitely earned it and we look forward to you presenting what are your thoughts about this whole luxury room that we developed and how that could contribute to the future of lighting design.

Speaker 1: 56:11

Well, I mean, it's really good that you put people from a certain discipline, the light industry, together and exchange Right. And I think the goal of the conference or at least the reason why I'm coming, or why I think I'm coming is to sort of trigger them and tease them in opening up their perspective of what lights could be and can be, and to sort of share and show what is possible and the impact that can have, and not to suggest it's like easy, but also show people that journey. How do you go from idea to realization? How do you trigger clients to approach and have the guts to do new things? Right? And I always go back to like 500 years ago.

Speaker 1: 57:00

You and I, if we would have this conversation, we most likely would have thought the, the earth was the, the center of the universe, right, and all the stars would rotate around us, right. And and we liked that idea, right, we were in control, we really liked that idea. And then suddenly hadileo came and he said no, you're living in a lie, right? Actually the Earth is turning around the sun, 148 million kilometers away from here. And the Catholic Church at that time the biggest institution really didn't like that idea. So they grounded him for the rest of his life, like he could not leave his house for the rest of his life just because he had an idea. And then Copernicus came and Kepler, and it proved he was right. But we still, martin, today call it sunset, sunrise, although it's not true. It took us 500 years, and we still haven't fully accepted it, to go from that we are the center perspective to our no, we're actually turning around the sun. I'm not suggesting I'm a Galileo, by the way, just for the record.

Speaker 1: 58:12

but so to change your perspective is everything because, if you look at things in a different way, it changes everything your relationship, your value system, your words, right. And so I hope the confidence that we'll have on a maybe on a bigger scale, but even on a smaller scale, but on a certain scale, you know what I mean Like, like, like, helps people to change their perspective. And because when you change your perspective, everything changes, and that's really important in a time like this. We looking in the right way? Are we really seeing what's real or not, or is it just an illusion or a sentiment of the past we're holding on to?

Speaker 2: 58:49

yeah, well, part of the the event is also to invite the shortlisted winners winners to actually give a presentation about their work, because just seeing a picture of their work is.

Speaker 2: 59:04

You know, it's all about sharing knowledge, education. So we felt it was imperative to have the winners come up present and there's sort of. Also, the incentive of the submission is that they'll be invited to come to China and present their winning works so that we can learn from it. And at the same time we talk about AI, we also put in the sufficient form that we want them to declare the use of AI so we can learn also about that process. Of what part did AI play in the idea, creation or the concept or the project that you're presenting to us?

Speaker 1: 59:42

So we're looking very much forward and if you want, and if you want, I can. If you send all the images in advance, I can put it all in my mid journey and then create a whole new design from all the winning awards. Yeah, this was a joke. This was a joke no, but you're.

Speaker 2: 1:00:00

Well, it's a joke, but it's a joke, but it's doable. It's feasible, because obviously we'll have the entry.

Speaker 1: 1:00:05

Yeah yeah, let's honor the winners first. We can do a jazz, a mid-journey jazz party, afterwards.

Speaker 2: 1:00:17

We're looking forward to have you there and much appreciate your acceptance to come and speak to the audience there. I would like to leave this chat with giving you the floor in terms of what do you expect in terms of the future, for you as an innovator, as an artist, but also for the lighting community, in terms of where are we going, what can we expect or what would you ideally see happening?

Speaker 1: 1:00:48

Well, I mean, it's a hunch, right, but there are really interesting, very concrete scientific studies that you can read in Science Magazine where, when two light beams hit each other on high speed, in very specific circumstances, they become matter, and so the idea is that that's how certain stars or planets are created, right? And so I think we just the idea just blows my mind, Right, you know, right, you just then you have something like a real thing you can touch because of light. And so I think we just or a Nobel Prize winner of laser a couple of years ago, like we just scratching, barely sketching the surface of the potential of light, how it can help us, how it can heal us, how it can create dimensions that we don't know, how we can see the world through the eyes of a butterfly, right, while we're actually human. And so I wish that I and we all together have that open perspective on the power of light and keep experimenting and keep playing with it, because it's going to help us, it's going to help us as humans 100%.

Speaker 2: 1:02:14

I have this idea when you and I will have a drink in Shanghai later this year, we'll be bouncing ideas and creative concepts with each other, because you look to me like a person that you say one thing and then suddenly boom, you get this idea, or something else.

Speaker 1: 1:02:34

The mind is a weird thing. The mind is a weird thing.

Speaker 2: 1:02:37

Looking forward to it. Thanks so much for this chat, dan, much appreciated. Thanks, martin, and we look forward to see you at the Luxuryurism event. 100%.