Speaker 1: 0:00

Phil, then welcome to Light Talk.

Speaker 2: 0:03

Thank you very much. Good to be with you, Martin.

Speaker 3: 0:06

Yes, it's an absolute pleasure being here today and it's actually a real honor to be honest with you. It's great.

Speaker 1: 0:12

Thank you, thank you. Well, I would like to start with a bigger picture, just to set the scene a little bit to understand and give you also the chance to explain what BHA School of Lighting is about, what courses you are teaching, what certificates people can get, and, assuming you have students from all over the world, maybe you can let the audience know a little bit what the BHA School is all about.

Speaker 2: 0:36

You know, BHA School of Lighting. The company only started, was registered in 2017, we had started previously under our lighting design company Banner, back in 2013. But then it was in its infancy. It was very different. It was a correspondence course rather than being an online course. So when we discovered the online software that was available, that's when we registered the company In 2017, we began operations under the banner of that company and have done so ever since, and the courses, of course, have been vastly changed and enhanced, so they are up to the moment, accurate and dealing with all the latest technologies. So that's quite exciting because it's constantly on the move, so you're constantly updating your material.

Speaker 1: 2:02

So when you say software, what is the technology? You're using a specific technology to teach.

Speaker 2: 2:06

We are using technology known as Moodle. It originated in Australia.

Speaker 1: 2:14

Wow.

Speaker 2: 2:15

Yeah, it's now worldwide and it's fantastic software. It's just got so much to offer. I'm talking in the teaching environment, the educational environment.

Speaker 1: 2:30

Right.

Speaker 2: 2:32

So it's really really good we can embed video content. There's just so much we can do with it.

Speaker 1: 2:41

What courses do you offer? I mean probably a wide range from basics to more technical application oriented subjects.

Speaker 3: 2:49

Yes, uh at present we have four short courses, so they're certificate courses, and then we also have an advanced diploma in illumination engineering, which is our premier course, and that's a two-year course. The premier course covers an introductory phase of lighting, so getting familiar with the terminologies and things like that, right through to learning about the fourth industrial revolution technologies, so it's fully up-to-date. All about lighting controls, interior and exterior design techniques. We cover over illumination in depth, light pollution in vast detail as well, and then, of course, lighting design software is included in that package. So, yeah, all the courses are on the learning platform. All the courses are on the learning platform, so our students are able to have their own student user account and, depending on what course they apply for, then they have access to those learning resources and materials.

Speaker 1: 3:56

And they get a certification at the end.

Speaker 2: 3:59

Yes, of course. Certificates for the short courses and the advanced diploma for the two-year course. Certificates for the short courses and the advanced diploma for the two-year course.

Speaker 3: 4:08

Yes, our course used to be accredited with SACA, which is the South African Qualifications Association, but now because we've grown quite considerably on an international front, so we are waiting for our accreditation with the European Agency for Higher Accreditation and that's going to mean that our course is internationally recognized and then students will be able to earn points for each of the modules, which they could then use towards applying for other courses around the world.

Speaker 2: 4:47

Yeah it's like 120 credits.

Speaker 1: 4:50

Oh, wow, okay. So you get students from all over the world, don't you?

Speaker 3: 4:55

Yes, we got a vast footprint many students in the Middle East, so the UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Egypt. Of course, many from South Africa, not so many from Europe. Maybe that's because of our courses are in English so it's maybe a bit more difficult for people, maybe having to translate and such. But certainly where English is used as business language, I'd say that's where our footprint is the biggest.

Speaker 1: 5:30

Okay, so we've got to talk about….

Speaker 2: 5:33

Sorry, go ahead, daniel, we've had as far afield as Uruguay, argentina, hawaii, and in the US, of course, all over and in Australia, yeah, yeah yeah, now we're going to talk about AI and the impact of AI on education.

Speaker 1: 5:52

So maybe for everybody to understand, how do your students participate and how do they submit their work and what sort of things do they submit I assume assignments and things like that so that we have the whole picture on what we're talking about and where potentially, ai may have an influence.

Speaker 2: 6:12

All right. The students submit assignments online, so we can have every student working simultaneously on this platform and it's available 24-7, 365. On this platform and it's available 24-7, 365. So it's a marvelous platform from an educational point of view. So they do it at their own pace or it's live.

Speaker 2: 6:41

Yeah, they work at their own pace, but there's obviously a study guide and we try and keep them to the study guide. A study guide and we try and keep them to the study guide. They determine their own study plan based on the study guide because everybody's circumstances are different, so you can't be constipate a particular study go.

Speaker 3: 7:02

Can I add also that most of our students are professionals, so architects, electrical engineers, interior designers and, of course, lighting professionals. So we don't have really school leavers, let's say, or high school diplomas, arriving to our school. It's more tailored. The courses are for for professionals wanting to increase their knowledge about the lighting industry so what would you say is the balance at the moment?

Speaker 1: 7:30

do you have more professionals like light, potential lighting designers, architects and designers, or are there real, just students that have just graduated and wanted to learn the the discipline of lighting design before they start a career?

Speaker 3: 7:45

I think I would say the majority are professionals. So generally already working in the lighting industry, either maybe as sales persons, and now they've been thrust into a situation where they need to learn about design, for example. Or then you have the architects who are need to learn about design, for example. Or then you have the architects who are wanting to learn more about their unidentical twin, you know, because without light, there cannot be any architecture to be seen, you know.

Speaker 1: 8:17

Right, right, right, right. Okay Now, before I dive into what AI has as an impact in education, I want to ask an individual question to each of you, because it will be interesting to when both of you are aware of AI. But I would like to know how you use AI at the moment, if at all, in your daily life, what is your knowledge of AI and if you use it, potentially also professionally, in your daily work. It would be interesting to know where you stand individually in relation to AI.

Speaker 2: 9:00

Sure, I think, Phil, particularly in two different ways. The one is when I'm doing research on particular subjects not always for students or for the courses, because as you go through life there are always other questions that arise and you can get an answer from Google. And you can get an answer from Google, but you can get a far more extensive answer from an AI. And because we have a high license level with Microsoft, we use Copilot, and I use Copilot quite a lot because it brings up references. Even so, it will actually give you references so you can go back and you can seek more detail from that specific reference piece.

Speaker 3: 10:02

And I'll also add that, because we use CodePilot as a team, that of course we use it for the school as well as in the lighting design business. So our AI companion, let's say, is trained on topics that we've been prompting, you know, so it's developed its own, let's say, writing style and things like that as well.

Speaker 2: 10:28

Because with Copilot, it actually searches our own documents. It will go and search all of my own documents on my local drive or on OneDrive, being Microsoft users, and it'll look for answers that I've probably come up with, or it'll pull all the resources to give me answers, but then it will also go and look outside.

Speaker 1: 10:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I use chat GPT a lot, which I feel is also looking into what I already have, but obviously you build up a library of things when you work with it, and I use Gemini and Copilot once in a while, just sometimes to have different opinions. That's also good. You can get one tool but sometimes two. You can get one tool but sometimes two and have you used. But maybe we come to that later on because I'm also interested to, if you're already into AI, whether you have used that to check submission from your students.

Speaker 3: 11:38

So maybe on the student side of things we'll cover that next. But in my daily life, um, I kind of do the role of maybe three or four people, um, because in our, in our business, it's only phil and myself. So in regards to our, our students, I cover the the first years and and phil moderates all the second year's work. So we've got that to cover. But then in the lighting design business I use AI quite extensively.

Speaker 3: 12:13

I use Midjourney particularly so I have a license with them and of course creating AI, let's say generating AI images for concepts, is really great. Another thing that I use it for is I work in Relux Lighting Design Software to create all my reporting for projects and such things. But of course then it also creates high-resolution ray-traced renders so I can take my renders and put them into Midjourney and ask Midjourney to animate and create walkthrough videos of my lighting designs. So of course that's now another like for me. When I discovered that, it was like kind of mind blowing because the offering now that I can provide to my clients is like you know, this super wow factor Instead of seeing this flat, kind of you know render from a project. So it's kind of made things, let's say, more immersive in that sense.

Speaker 1: 13:18

Do you use the language models maybe also to structure your courses, or is that purely the old-fashioned way? I'm pretty sure that Phil would have? Is that purely the old-fashioned way? I'm pretty sure that Phil would have done that in the old-fashioned way writing down the courses.

Speaker 2: 13:31

No, it's the old-fashioned way. Yeah, yeah, I didn't use my AI.

Speaker 1: 13:35

Yes, but I'm a bit like you, phil, but I've now discovered that these tools are so handy in structuring and restructuring things like whatever written document. That could have a big impact on how you further develop courses in the future.

Speaker 3: 13:54

So one thing we've been researching. Obviously, the possibilities are kind of endless at this stage with AI, so one possibility we're looking into is taking our learning materials for each of the modules and then you can create student lessons and use your own voice, to embed your voice into a video or an animation to explain a particular topic. So that's a new route that we're navigating at the moment, um, but it's like super exciting and I think the students will benefit greatly from it. So, instead of reading a learning module, um, they'll be more engaged, you know, by seeing, hearing, you know, absorbing with the eyes and taking that well, really absorbing that information in their minds and not just reading it from a transcript.

Speaker 1: 14:54

Now let's get to the key question.

Speaker 2: 14:58

Another person says I use AI, that's in accounting software.

Speaker 1: 15:03

Oh for sure, yeah, there's.

Speaker 2: 15:04

AI. So I ask it at a point in time, at the end of the month or early just after the month end, which students haven't paid installments for those who pay by installment, and it will tell me who hasn't paid and then I've prepared an email and I just tell it. Send them the email.

Speaker 1: 15:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it sends the email.

Speaker 2: 15:32

So I don't have to sit and actually physically do it. So it's looking to the ways and means to use AI as another employee.

Speaker 2: 15:42

Very good as another employee, which would do sometimes I have to send a letter or something like that to someone and I tell AI, which is co-pilot in this instance, to actually prepare it. Give it good instructions and it will do the job. Give it lousy instructions, it will be a lousy job. It will really be unacceptable. It goes around what kind of instruction you give, just as you would give a human an instruction.

Speaker 1: 16:21

The clearer the instruction, the better the outcome Correct. I mean that's in general. Yep, the clearer the construction, the better the outcome Correct. Absolutely, I mean that's in general. I think bigger companies are starting to use that also to track of their clients, and the paymasters are making sure everybody pays in time, and then you can train your AI agent to look after that and automatically send the messaging when it's necessary. Listen, I wanted to come to the key question of why we're here today, which is is AI cheating or is it an actual evolution in the whole learning process? And that basically because at one point of time, you did start to suspect that your students were using AI in their submissions. So the first how did you notice it, how prevalent was it already and what are your thoughts on that? What are we going to do now?

Speaker 3: 17:20

Let's say in the first year of our two-year course. Let's speak about that because that's where AI is incredibly prevalent at this stage. So the first year of our premier course is, let's say, the majority of it is theory-based, so it's learning about things like production of light. You know light sources. So the assignments were particularly, let's say, you give a question and the student can find the answers in the learning module and then kind of parrot answer it. Let's say that in the past.

Speaker 3: 17:59

So of course we've been doing this for a good few years and of course we've been doing this for a good few years. So from our history of moderating assignments, we could easily see that as soon as AI was introduced, particularly just by the format and writing style of AI, the type of bullet points, the type of heading so it's a very structured, let's say, answer that AI gives. It's really great, let's not say it's bad, it's really great, but it's incredibly easy to identify. And then of course the AI is not resourcing any of the learning material, maybe from our learning models. So when students provide an answer for X question, then maybe the AI isn't drawing on the resources from our learning module and then it doesn't provide the full answer. So it's quite easy to see the difference between pre-AI and current situation with AI.

Speaker 1: 19:10

So this started about a year ago.

Speaker 2: 19:14

Yeah, I'd say so. It was during last year, during last year.

Speaker 3: 19:19

But I'd say, in the last three months particularly, it has become like every just about everybody recently has used it. Of course, then I know you received our recent newsletter about ethical use of AI, so this is how we got to today's discussion. So yeah, obviously we have to evolve with the times and what we are looking at doing is a kind of restructuring of the course in terms of the assignments, and maybe we need to look at making students create answers in a more creative manner or something like that, let's say, where it's not parrot fashion kind of answer, so it's more testing their critical thinking rather than just providing an answer, you know.

Speaker 2: 20:18

Yeah, what we also noticed with them answering and using AI. You could immediately see because that personal style and perhaps the personal style because they didn't have such a masterful language ability to express themselves and all of a sudden you can see like a perfect style of voice in style, talking about the style, and immediately you can see this is not the person I know but the nice thing is you have some comparison material before and after so that you know the content and the course material itself.

Speaker 1: 21:03

So I can imagine that AI has the ability to dive, on your side, into some of your materials. So that's pretty interesting. You did mention, I think, that you were taking some action or pausing maybe the courses to sort of reflect on the situation before moving forward again. Did I understand that correctly?

Speaker 2: 21:27

No, we haven't paused the courses. What we're doing, I'm busy with a major refresh of the course. It's a very significant refresh On the basic theoretical side. There's not too much you can refresh, except in certain instances in the newer technologies. But the typical old theory, the theory, still applies.

Speaker 3: 21:56

Yeah, when it comes to lighting design techniques, of course techniques like Richard Kelly's are taught, you know. So the basis of design elements, that still remains the same. Of course, there's new techniques evolving with the flexibility of LEDs, especially in the lighting control sphere of things, and the amazing things you can do with lights nowadays.

Speaker 2: 22:23

And all the new technologies that we use in lighting. So you know there's a lot of scope for it and I think it's really good there is a place for AI there certainly is.

Speaker 1: 22:39

Whether you want it or not.

Speaker 2: 22:41

Education, though, is to determine what that place is, so that students move ethically through the course.

Speaker 3: 22:51

Yeah, and then you asked about kind of what we're doing about the AI use. So we've, in the present moment, before we revamp, let's say, the assignment papers, so we've applied a 15% penalty to the total moderated grade for a particular assignment.

Speaker 1: 23:19

Explain the penalty. How does that apply?

Speaker 3: 23:22

So each of the assignments are out of a certain grade. There's certain points. Let's say x assignment or something?

Speaker 3: 23:30

yes, for if, if ai has been used and it's, uh, been detected and answers haven't been provided in full, you know, and obviously we have that comparison to go by and when, when answers aren't complete, or sometimes students ask to provide a certain diagram or create a presentation, this was actually a really good example. One particular question was to create a presentation. So what the AI did? The AI then created notes and said on slide one, include XXX point On slide two. And then the student copied and pasted this instead of answering the question by creating their own presentation, which was the task. So things like that, that's when the penalty is going to apply well, I think people can argue.

Speaker 1: 24:29

Sorry, go ahead, phil.

Speaker 2: 24:31

I had one where the student answered certain questions and actually only got less than 50% of the points because AI didn't source our modules with our manuals. So just as an example, so the student actually lost out by using AI and it's not AI.

Speaker 1: 25:01

They can be addicted, right. So they sort of only use what AI provides them and they don't think further.

Speaker 3: 25:08

Yeah, and then maybe let's say, because the students are learning at their own pace, so some students, for example, have fallen behind with their time. So now what you find is okay, I need to catch up, so I'm going to use ai to answer all my assignments, you know. So it's. It's a really tricky place to navigate this world of ai and how it's. It's kind of becoming a little bit intrusive in the learning sphere of things, in the design side of things. It's incredible, and if you don't use the tools that are available now and learn them now, then you're going to be left behind. So you need to have these skills and acquire these skills now, before it's too late, and you're left behind. It's kind of like the computer revolution of the 90s, you know.

Speaker 1: 26:05

Yeah, yeah, but the question is, how do we address this? Because people can argue that AI is basically no different from a calculator that you use in mathematics or these kind of tools. It has become a normal thing to do, so we need to find a way to become transparent and somehow find a way where we can draw the line between what is your own honest contribution and what is the assistance that you drew from the AI tool. So declaring that you have used it, or maybe even forcing students to mention what they have used as a tool and how they have used it, and maybe even mentioning the sources, could be a way, I imagine, to sort of get a hold on this. What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2: 27:04

I think it is a possibility to get a declaration. We'll include a declaration form. It's something that we've considered. Excuse me a moment, but we had a student session last night. We do it once a month, on the first Wednesday of every month, where we have a student support session. It's the opportunity where students all come online and they're able to ask any questions that they may have. That is bothering them, but we also took the opportunity last evening to talk about AI and the ethical use of AI and at the same time, we also said AI has got a very important place in the learning process, where you can use it just as you've used Google all of these years. Ai is taking its place. Google is falling short on its answers, whereas AI is far more comprehensive in its answers.

Speaker 2: 28:19

It might not cover all the points to pass an assignment, but it's very useful. So at the end of the day, once you've got all this information together, it's up to the student to write the assignment and to ensure that it addresses all the points to get full marks or close to full marks.

Speaker 1: 28:45

Then there's also the human intervention in terms of we all know that AI is not perfect and it sometimes hallucinates a little bit and comes up with things that are potentially not correct. So, encouraging students to really double check what the AI is providing them and maybe rewarding, restructuring or whatever it is that they need to do to make it their own and make sure that what they pass on is actually correct. Otherwise, you know, you can say you can't say oh, the AI gave me, this is not my fault. In the end, it's still the human that makes the final decisions and does the final actions.

Speaker 2: 29:32

I would like to give an example. The other evening we were at a restaurant and I was asked the question by my dear wife why do the lights of the city across the bay twinkle? And I gave an answer. I'm not going to spend time on that now, but interestingly, when I got home I checked with AI to see what answer it would give me. With AI, see what answer would give me.

Speaker 1: 30:10

And I'm glad to say that my answer was more comprehensive than AI.

Speaker 3: 30:15

Well, that's your 40 or 50 years of experience, bill, yeah, totally. But I think also one of the big things in the learning process is considering the cognitive risks in using AI for academic tasks. So there was recently a study at MIT Media Lab and Cornell. So they discovered that students using AI for essay writing showed up to 55% less brain activity, and these were in areas like memory, creativity and semantic processing. So many couldn't recall or quote their own essays and fell quite short on their submissions. So AI's reliance may hinder development of critical academic skills like thinking, memory retention and creativity.

Speaker 1: 31:10

Well, I have to say you may be aware of it, I'm currently trying to develop a course for lighting designers in using AI. Quite honestly, I don't know much about AI, but the person I'm working with is an AI freak.

Speaker 3: 31:30

Yes, I've seen his work. Of course, I follow him on social media. You've got to keep up with the game. Yes, yes, that's absolutely mind-blowing the possibilities.

Speaker 1: 31:42

Yes, yes, yes and that's why that's absolutely mind-blowing possibilities yeah yeah, yeah, but that's why I I walk this with him because I'm like the human consciousness to make sure that what he comes up with is actually doable. Yeah, um no, if you've been in the industry, like me, for so long time, a lot of things is is gut feeling and intuition. We know when we see something, we know instantly whether it's right or not. We don't always have the explanation, but we know, we can feel it.

Speaker 3: 32:09

Yeah, you can't fool the eye. Let's say that.

Speaker 1: 32:12

Absolutely and that's the relationship we have in building up this course is he comes up with AI stuff and I'm saying, well, listen, this is how we do it, and I'm trying to sort of counterbalance the machine learning of the AI with my human intuition. So it's quite an interesting process and I'm learning along the way, of course, as well. But yeah, so now, having said all that, what are you planning in regards to implement AI policies, making sure that you can define what is acceptable, what is unethical, when you get them to do their coursework and exams and things like that? Have you already managed to sort of define and finalize a bit your views and how you would like it to work?

Speaker 2: 33:03

I'd like to first answer some of it. I've been following it very closely to see what some of the great universities that we have are doing about AI and just recently, cape Town University, which is probably regarded as one of the top universities in South Africa, it's actually announced that they are going to allow AI to be used. So they've gone the complete different way to allow them to use AI, to allow them to use AI. I'm not sure that I agree with it, because I can see what has been happening and I'm sure, daniel, you've probably had a similar experience where they've used AI to answer, but they don't get all the points that they would normally have got when they did the assignment and immediately you can see the student is actually. It's almost like a retrogressive step using AI, whereas AI should be a progressive step. Interesting.

Speaker 3: 34:27

Yeah, I kind of agree, especially in the learning sphere. So, as I mentioned a while ago. So it's just about that memory retention. Ai is not going to remember for you is what I believe. It's there as a companion, like your calculator, to assist you. If you don't go on this learning journey yourself, then you are going to feel the side effects of using AI. Someone's going to ask you a question and you're not going to probably know the answer because you can't remember. It is my opinion.

Speaker 1: 35:07

You have to ask AI first before you can answer?

Speaker 3: 35:09

Yes, precisely. Just hang on a minute. Let me just send a voice note to my AI to provide me an answer and I'll get back to you. Can we stop the conversation? I think the learning journey is very important, that you use AI as a companion and not as a replacement, and then the best way to learn, as I probably said earlier as well, is the seeing, the writing, the listening, the watching you know, so that your brain is absorbing all of that information and then you're able to have open discussions with your colleagues and your network or your clients, and you can be in the industry with confidence.

Speaker 1: 35:54

Yeah Well, I think you can also refer back to the older days when we used to do hand calculations. I can still calculate pretty well by hand. I don't need a calculator to do things I can hand sketch. I don't need a computer program to sketch something out right. That's what you have trained in the older days. But at the same time I know how to use a calculator. I know how well I'm not very good in software to do renders, but you know it's evolution, obviously.

Speaker 1: 36:28

And we need to somehow educate the students on what the limitations and the risk will be by using AI without human oversight. I think that will be one of maybe your task as well as educators to try and bring that balance Like listen. You need to train this part as well, not only train the core, but also train to think.

Speaker 2: 36:52

You see Martin, if we look back at how the course is structured. When I developed the course, I developed it on the building block principle. I developed the course. I developed it on the building block principle. What you learn in Module 1, you're still going to be using it in Module 25.

Speaker 2: 37:12

Yes, it's not something that you learn it and discard it. You take it with you every step of the way because that's growing your lighting journey. It's growing the expertise that you need in this world today to do lighting successfully. So you need to take all of it and not some of it. And if you're going to use AI, there's some of it you're not going to take because the bit that you're relying on is going to have shortcomings. Yeah, so that's also a very important fact from the way we've structured the course.

Speaker 3: 37:55

Yeah, and we're quite open about it with our students. So, like last night, we discussed it with them and they gave their opinion. So, like last night, we discussed it with them and they gave their opinion, and I think the general consensus is that it should be used as a companion, but not to replace. So it's about spreading that message and the risks that are involved, especially in your learning journey. But, of course, at the same time, we're encouraging the use of AI, because it's definitely an assistant.

Speaker 2: 38:25

And in the new content which will come on stream at the beginning of next year, from 1 January, it will include some new content on AI, because AI is working into the lighting sphere as well, so it will be very important that they keep up with it. There's a question I want to ask you, please, martin. You were speaking about using ChatGPD. Are you using the paid version or the free version?

Speaker 1: 39:01

Yeah, I've got the pro version.

Speaker 2: 39:02

You've got the pro version. You've got the pro version. Now there's a very If people use chat GPT, there's a very different answer between the free version and the pro version. So it's very significant. So you get what you pay for. It's very, very hard, so you get what you pay for.

Speaker 3: 39:25

It's very, very hard, of course. Yeah, and then Gemini has a different answer, because it's sourcing from websites all around. Yes, from all the different addresses. So it's a very different answer. That's provided because sourcing from Google-based webs.

Speaker 1: 39:42

Yeah, well, there's also the issue of privacy and confidentiality. Obviously, you have enterprise versions where it's really contained, where whatever you do stays supposedly within your own boundaries, right, everything is free, obviously is accessible to everybody. Everything is free, obviously is accessible to everybody. So also for your course materials, which I would imagine, even though it's based on common knowledge, is somewhat proprietary to you, to your school, obviously you would like to keep that also within control and be sure that AI does not start sharing around all your proprietary work that you have built up over the years.

Speaker 3: 40:34

Yeah, it's a tricky one to navigate, but of course we are doing our best to keep up our work copyrighted and away from AI. So yeah, because our learning platform is private with Moodle, the outside AIs can't access that information.

Speaker 1: 41:00

Yeah, I have a question to both of you, because there's obviously a generational difference between you, phil, and your son, and I have the same thing with my son. Like we were brought up in the older I mean I'm talking as the older generation in the years when I started and I feel the same for you we didn't have computers, we had to do everything by hand and then the computers came in bit by bit and all that, and so we are brought up differently. But today's generation is growing up with all these tools at their disposal. So I could imagine that your thoughts, phil, about what the evolution of technology means is a bit different than Daniel thinks of it. Do you have any clashes between you or different opinions? I would imagine there is, but maybe not.

Speaker 2: 41:56

I don't think we've had any clashes.

Speaker 3: 41:57

I don't know. We haven't had any clashes because, I must say, phil is, like, incredibly knowledgeable about technology. He likes to keep up to date, and likewise with myself, and we're constantly sharing discoveries with each other and what's best for our business, how can we improve, how can we make workflows faster, things like that. So, yeah, I don't think we have any clashes and I'm not that young I'm closing in on the 4-0 nowadays. So yeah, although we're generations apart, we're quite close to thinking the same.

Speaker 2: 42:44

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 42:45

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:46

No, that's absolutely true. My philosophy is I've got to stay ahead, almost ahead of the technologies, if you understand what I'm saying. I've got to stay right up there. It's my business to stay up there, because how can we offer our students right up-to-date teaching if I'm staying there? So it's really a major mission and it in fact keeps me young.

Speaker 1: 43:23

Well, I think I'm pretty much like you, phil, because you have to be curious, you have to embrace new technology. We already had that over the years, even in the lamp technology, the lighting technology that is evolved from simple fluorescent metal halides till where we are today with sophisticated smart LED systems. We had to keep up and I think being curious keeps you young as well. And, yeah, I'm the same. That's why I've embarked at my age to still do an AI course and you're thinking why Just keep it easy? But it's a way to keep up with it and be able to remain relevant in this world, I think.

Speaker 1: 44:07

But we have the advantage that we carry that years and years of experience and intuition with us, what we have learned from the very early days of doing things by hand and really knowing what we're talking about by hand and really knowing what we're talking about Whilst. Today, if you develop a project that is mostly AI-driven, my question would be well, where are you going to gain that experience? Where is it that you're going to go to that process purely by yourself? Learn from your mistakes not from the AI mistakes, but your own mistakes right to build up your expertise and your experience. I think that's a question that I'm asking myself how the new generation, today's generation, is going to build up that experience if it's being supported and maybe even led by AI. Where's your part in all this?

Speaker 2: 45:05

Yeah, I agree, 100%, 100%, because you know, if there's a total reliance on that, on AI, there won't be expertise. No, so when you've got to account for what you've given out there, who are you going to challenge AI?

Speaker 3: 45:32

and the.

Speaker 3: 45:33

AI in the lighting design sphere in terms of projects, the AI isn't going to be able to sign that certificate of conformity at the end of the project. When you have to sign it off, you have to do it and you have to know exactly what this design needs to achieve in various applications. Do I need 100 lux? Do I need to light up this emergency escape route correctly? How do I do it and how many light fittings do I need on this escape route, for example? So, yeah, the AI is not going to, firstly, in an academic sense, remember for you and it's not going to be able to sign off your projects, but it can certainly help, so definitely in the the concept stages and producing nice renders and great ideas and things like that. Um, because I do that for my projects and just from a playing around point of view, it's also really great to see what can be developed. But, yeah, ai is not going to do your job and it doesn't have your knowledge in a practical sense.

Speaker 1: 46:38

Yeah, no, absolutely. And while AI will probably be very good in theory, providing your internet is working, but you also have to build in the emotions and the feelings. Where are those? The AI doesn't have that, at least for now. I would not be surprised that things like that will, of course, be able to machine learn emotions and feelings, maybe as well, but for now, the intuition that I mentioned before and the emotions and the feelings that we have when we see lighting lighting reacts differently to different materials, different colors. How well is AI able to pick that up and transfer that into emotional values? That is something that is yet to be seen. I think yeah.

Speaker 1: 47:30

And that's the part that I'm sort of working on in the AI course, because that's what I feel is missing.

Speaker 3: 47:37

Yeah, maybe in the AI sense in terms of creating renders and things like that. So let's maybe talk about a practical example of, maybe, a bar counter and we want to wash light on the bar counter or down from the bar counter and washing the woodwork or something like that. Ai might be able to make a really nice concept and have that bar glowing and looking really good, this nice warm tones on the wood and things like that. But then in a practical sense, how far should I mount that neon flex, for example? How far should it be from the bar counter? What effect works best? Should I create a lip underneath the bar counter to conceal something? So in a practical sense, the AI doesn't know what you need to do in a lighting design technique sense, but from having experience in a lighting design position, you'll know what works best in a practical sense.

Speaker 1: 48:49

Yep, yep, yep, absolutely. So what do you think? If you're going to integrate AI as part of the core materials, I would imagine that at one point in time, you will have to somehow manage, monitor and control that aspect. There are obviously several steps in the design process where it could help, not only in developing narratives or storytelling, but also in ID creations and maybe making mood boards or doing lighting calculations. I did one exercise with Sahil about checking dialogues calculations I'm not sure if you thought I can share that with you where we asked AI to check and fact check the lighting calculations and show us where we could improve or what could be, you know, correct. So it's really interesting and it came out with some really interesting things.

Speaker 1: 49:56

I can share the document with you. That would be amazing.

Speaker 3: 49:59

Yeah, I'd love to read through that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And certainly, if you're creating Latin specification documents, you'll be able to generate your report whether you work in Relux or Dialux and get your bill of quantities and then ask the AI here's the products, here's the quantity now gather all the information, insert the links of the product, the images, et cetera, et cetera, and then generate this lighting specification document and of course, that saves an incredible amount of time creating a simple document. You know.

Speaker 1: 50:38

Yeah. So there's obviously two different approaches I think Phil mentioned. On one hand, you can do a controlled integration of AI. On the other hand, you can also give them a free hand and say well, as long as you maybe declare what you've been doing, do whatever you do, do whatever you want to do. In the end, it's the end result that counts. But if you look at it in the context of education, I think it's a bit different because as lighting designers, I know many lighting design practices that already use AI and put it as part of their contract that they will use AI in the development of their design concepts. So that is already sort of a transparency clause in the contract where it said we will be using AI. But in education I think it's a bit more tricky because on the one hand, you want people to learn and develop this right, develop the brains and you know critical thinking, but on the other hand, you also need to give them some sort of free hand to use the tools that are available to work with.

Speaker 3: 51:59

So it's a fine balance, I think. Well, in our two-year course, for example, we have the end-of-year exams for first year and second year. At the end of first year they have to write a practical exam and the practical exam consists of Lumen method and point method calculations. So good luck to your AI. Doing those calculations is what I'll say, because, yeah, it's pretty tricky. And that practical exam, yeah, it's giving students the foundation of understanding what light does with mathematical lighting calculations. So yeah, I think, in the exam sense, that one will be very tricky to navigate with AI.

Speaker 2: 52:52

And even the final exams in second year. I mean, both exams theory and the practical are eight-hour exams, Right, which is a whole day if you think about it, and there is no time to waste. You can't afford to sit asking AI and tasking AI to get answers and run the risk of not making the grade. And I think that some of the lessons that students have learned and I doubt this will continue to learn along the way they are going to find that they are not going to achieve the results because the answer is not a full answer or whatever the case might be. But will they know that? You will see that, probably, but case might be, but will?

Speaker 1: 53:50

they know that you will see that probably, but they might not see that.

Speaker 2: 53:54

They will see it when they get the results. Yes, of course, without even penalizing them, ai is penalizing them anyway. Yeah, and maybe while we're talking about, while's actually a very interesting one.

Speaker 3: 54:10

While we're talking about penalizing, when we have implemented the 15% penalty policy on certain assignments that have been submitted, the students haven't contested a single penalty. Not a single person has contested to us.

Speaker 1: 54:28

So your penalty is not high enough.

Speaker 3: 54:30

Yeah, probably not.

Speaker 2: 54:33

They get the penalty and they don't even get the full marks because AI falls short on the answers. So it's like a double whammy.

Speaker 1: 54:45

I mean, I was always told it doesn't matter how you get it, as long as you get it. So even if you don't have full marks, as much you can get it.

Speaker 2: 54:53

I think AI is likened to you know, you go to class, you've got all your answers written on the palm of your hand or on the back of your cup.

Speaker 1: 55:07

But I really like the idea of maybe not penalizing but developing a point system that is with or without AI, so maybe penalizing might not be the right warning Maybe a reward system is the better way to go with using AI.

Speaker 3: 55:27

Maybe that's the way we could look at focusing it in rather rewarding situations.

Speaker 2: 55:31

That's an interesting one.

Speaker 1: 55:36

I like the idea it might also promote people to get extra points by not using AI or something like that.

Speaker 3: 55:45

Many of our graduate students have applied for positions overseas. So obviously our South African students and the situation politically in the country right now is in a tricky place. So many of the skilled workers are emigrating to other countries around the world are emigrating to other countries around the world and, as a result, many of our graduate students are applying for positions at firms around the planet. So one of them is working at Nolte Plus in London. So we're very proud of that achievement and he got the position with the recognition of the school as one of the main actors for being employed by them. So you know many at Iguzini, which is one of the world's leading lighting suppliers. So you know, like I think, if you're a graduate, you pass with the assistance of AI. You go work at Nelty, for example, paul Nelty, I think his name and he starts speaking to you. I think he's going to recognize that you don't have all the knowledge that you said you did if you work entirely with AI.

Speaker 2: 57:05

Paul and Mark will both see it straight away.

Speaker 1: 57:08

You know, by the way, nulti bought my company, right? So I'm part of Nulti nowadays. Yes, yes, really Congratulations on that. But no, no, we are going through that process now, also within Nulti, to see what would be the best way to integrate AI in the whole design process. It's not an easy one, but it's certainly something, and that's why these kind of discussions are also helpful, which I also share within the team, because it's important to understand where we are at, what kind of practices are being applied in different disciplines, how people use AI, and I think Paul is totally right If your knowledge is based on AI, then maybe it's not really that strong, because you need to be able to work also without a computer at your fingertips. So, yeah, it's a really fast-evolving platform at the moment. You mentioned that you use, like Midjourney and Gemini, chatgpt, maybe a bit. Are there any other tools that you're already looking at in terms of, because there's also video generation, not only the text and language models, but what are you looking at at the moment?

Speaker 3: 58:37

So, from a design sense, it's mid-journey predominantly at the moment. As I mentioned earlier, it's basically making video generations of my design work out of Relux as my preferred lighting design software, and then, of course, then ChatGPT have new models. So, in terms of planning and producing plan documents and, say, circuitry documents, chatgpt and the new models that have been released I think just this week I saw one released yesterday where you can upload your floor plans or your elevations or section drawings, and ChatGPT will now create a nice little model, 3d architectural model, that like spins kind of thing, and you came out with a student model. Yes, yes, yes, you shared the link with me.

Speaker 3: 59:38

So of course, I was discussing Phil and I had a chat yesterday just discussing the learning model. Of course, with the learning model you can learn all you like, but you're not going to get accredited degree or diploma, you know, yeah. So I think if you're seeking education, then seek an accredited educational program, and there's many to choose from and many to to suit various budgets, you know. So, yeah, ai is certainly something that we need to embrace, but, yeah, as a companion, as a companion and not as a replacement okay.

Speaker 1: 1:00:27

So, um, I think, uh, we, we instrument Okay. So I think we try. I don't have, unless you have, still many other questions. I'm sure that over the time coming there will be more questions as we develop things and we get hold and we get a good understanding how AI impacts the studies. But right now, the studies. But right now, where do you feel you are at and how do you want to continue with your courses? You sort of gave already a couple of directives in terms of what you're planning to do, but can you sort of summarize that where the BHA school is in terms of AI and how you plan to embrace and integrate AI in the courses?

Speaker 2: 1:01:14

Yeah, I think the big thing is we're going to embrace AI as a subject, as a topic not a specific AI variant, but particularly just as a topic variant, but particularly just as a topic to put it into focus and into perspective, from a learning point of view, what the benefits are and the pros and cons of AI in the educational environment.

Speaker 2: 1:01:46

You know, I understand, that the University of Cape Town are allowing free use of AI. I think the decision has been taken without a lot of thought, but they also have the population of the university goes across the different population groups in the country and the one population group. Obviously the numbers are much greater and if you were to penalize them, there would be major issues and possibly even unrest and so on. So the universities have a far more difficult time of it than we have. So I think we have to get that into perspective as well. Whereas we're a private organization, you choose to study with us and that's it. You have to abide by the rules that we set. But we'll do it in such a way, I think, for the benefit of our students, teach them what AI is and put AI in its place.

Speaker 3: 1:03:02

Yeah, there's definitely a place for it, of course, and yeah, so in our student support sessions, we speak about, about ai, how we can effectively use it as well. I've shown the students some examples of things that ai can create, um, so, yeah, it's that's about embracing the technology. At the end of the day, as I said, you're going to be left behind if you don't do it now. So, coming up in in october, we have for us is our, from a7 as our, as our guest speaker for for one of our upcoming events. So, yeah, we are fully focused, we, we want to share the knowledge, um, and, of course, share the the educational experience with as many people as possible. I think we believe it's our role to share knowledge, yeah, and to give our students the greatest educational experience that they can afford.

Speaker 2: 1:04:01

Yeah, and I think there's another useful bit of tech that we use. It's Otter AI. Have you heard of Otter AI?

Speaker 3: 1:04:14

No, it's your personal note taker.

Speaker 2: 1:04:18

Okay, it's your personal note taker. So when you have a session with our students, our personal note taker is there and it takes notes for us, so you don't have to bother yourself with making notes all the time.

Speaker 1: 1:04:32

Yeah, oh, yeah, no zoom has that as well.

Speaker 3: 1:04:35

There's many softwares that have like this ai note taking uh, verbally, like literally every single word that everybody says yeah and it does like if you, if you're showing or doing screen shares, for example, you're showing a student last night wanted to know what the difference is between an asymmetrical light distribution pattern and a batwing, so I could do the screen share and then the students could view what I'm talking about. But then when you review the AI notes, it's taken screenshots and included that as part of the discussion.

Speaker 1: 1:05:12

Oh, okay, yeah, it's so clever.

Speaker 3: 1:05:16

Yes, so, like students who didn't make it last night to the support session, they'll receive the link a little later to be able to review the session notes.

Speaker 1: 1:05:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay yeah. I mean, that seems like a simple intervention for AI to do.

Speaker 3: 1:05:31

Yeah, yeah, Easy peasy yeah yeah yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:05:34

Listen, it has been a great discussion. I would like to finish up with giving you each an opportunity to maybe send out. What kind of message would you have to the students that are going to use AI in their learning journey with you? What would be your message to them? And yeah, I think that would be probably a good parting shot to end this discussion.

Speaker 3: 1:06:00

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:06:01

I would say you have to take note of AI. You have to start to get your head around AI. Get your hands on it, start using it.

Speaker 3: 1:06:12

Whether you want to continue using it it's a personal decision, but you can't be left behind because, technology moves at an incredible pace, so I would encourage students, but I'd encourage them point out the ethics of using AI as well times throughout our discussion, but it's crucial to remember that during the learning journey, there's no better way to reaffirm what you've learned by reading, writing, listening and discussing these topics, because AI is not going to remember it for you, only you will.

Speaker 1: 1:07:03

Guys, thank you so much. I would love to catch up, maybe in half a year's time again, to see where yeah, yes.

Speaker 3: 1:07:11

I'll think of a strong voice. Of course, yes, totally no, it'll be great. Thank you, that's been a real privilege. Thank you very much, martin.

Speaker 2: 1:07:18

Thank you, martin, and thank you, phil.

Speaker 3: 1:07:21

Yeah, cheers guys, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:07:24

Cheers.